Think Vitamin Radio: Episode #4

Recorded: Monday 15th March 2010 Broadcast: Thursday 18th March 2010

Keir: Welcome to Episode 4 of Think Vitamin Radio. My name is Keir Whitaker. I’ll be your host for the next 30-odd minutes. I’m joined this week by Mike Kus, and Ryan. You’re back from holiday?

Ryan: Yes sir, sort of tan but not really.

Keir: Tanned! You are sporting Florida chic today.

Ryan: I kind of forgot to bring my normal clothes into work, so I’m in my pajamas today.

Keir: In your action slacks. We’ll forgive you for that. Did you have a nice time?

Ryan: Yes, it was good. It’s good to be back in the office though.

Keir: Cool. We sort of dubbed this episode the “I’m not at SxSW, but I don’t care much” episode. We’re here in Bath again. We’ve got a bunch of stuff lined up for this week. All three of us have picked a little topic, to have a chat about. Ryan, you’re going to start with a site you came across called StayValid?

Ryan: That’s right. One of our attendees in FOWA Miami told me about his site, called stayvalid.com. As you all know out there, testing your site to make sure it’s valid for the W3C specs is a pain in the ass. You kind of have to remember to go to the site; you can only do one page at a time, and it’s not very easy. StayValid, which you can try for free, you can basically pop in your URL and it emails you every time it finds a validation error. This is really useful as a lot of know; things in CSS3 or certain things we know about aren’t valid and those are okay but for legitimate concerns, it’s a great way to stay on top of that. I highly recommend it. It’s kind of an alternative to validator.w3.org. I’d say it’s pretty great.

Keir: Is that a free service?

Ryan: Yes, you can sign up for free, and there is also a paid plan that I think is around $7 a month. It’s really affordable. I’d recommend it.

Keir: So the more sites you’re on, the more it costs?

Ryan: I think it’s free for one site. Check it out.

Keir: I know we always have fun validating stuff, don’t we Mike? Un-encoded ampersands are your favorite. The one site I wanted to talk about was more of a blog post on the panic.com blog. Panic, as I’m sure many of you know, make Transmit and Coda, great max software. They actually posted a great piece about this internal dashboard that measures the number of emails in their support inboxes, where they are on a certain project, when the local buses are coming, number of days until the iPad launches and those sorts of things. It really got me thinking that there are a whole bunch of cool web apps or websites that people use internally that we probably don’t know about. It’s always fascinating to see what people come up with.

Keir:The post goes into detail about some of the tech behind it, how they use PHP to look at IMAP inboxes and that kind of stuff. What really struck me was it looks really nice. Did you see it, Mike?

Mike: Yeah

Ryan: I think you kind of expect that from Panic. They’re pretty rad.

Keir: They mounted it on this beautiful flat screen television, no trimming at all. It’s like something out of an airport.

Mike: When you see the picture on the blog post, it’s just like you can be forgiven for thinking it’s just a poster on the wall. To think it’s updating makes it extra cool.

Keir: They had a whole bunch of stuff on there, like number of emails waiting in their support queue, some sort of calendar, tweets relating to their products and all that kind of stuff. It’s really nice when you actually read through the post.

Keir: A lot of people take inspiration from this and also started linking back to some of their own internal apps. It’s definitely something I’ll keep an eye on and maybe they’ll release the code that we can all benefit from it in the future. It’s definitely worth checking out and if you’d like to look at it, I’ll set up a short URL link, using bit.ly/panicdashboard. It’s definitely worth checking out.

Keir: Finally we turn to you, Mike, and we both went to a local meetup called BathCamp last week, where you did a Q&A live on stage.

Mike: Yeah, we went to BathCamp, and I was doing a Q&A generally about web design, graphic design, and had a few questions shouted out at me. One of the questions that came up was about the design process, and what process I go through. The reason I want to quickly bring it up is because it’s a question that often comes up. I’ve sort of answered this in the past in a way that I felt I should answer it. One of my first blog posts was about it, and I made up a load of stuff that maybe you should do.

Mike:But, the truth is, personally – and I think it might be the same for a few people, is that I don’t have a set process. Sure, there are certain things I may do, but there is no set-in-stone process. I think it’s an interesting subject because I think a lot of designers look to other designers, thinking they have a process. Actually, maybe they don’t.

Keir: By process, are you referring to the creative process, more of the graphics you use, the way you create the graphics, or do you mean the HTML, CSS as well?

Mike: I’m thinking of the whole thing really, even designing from concept to completion. There is obvious process in the order you do things, but I think the hardest part is the design process and what order to approach that. I think the traditional method might be setting out wire frames in the beginning. In my head, I don’t really do that. I start at the end and think of -

Keir: So you do have a process!

Mike: No, having had the question asked to me, I thought about it honestly. I think what I’m saying about not having a process is that I don’t have a process as in I’ll do this first. I sort of have a little think about the overall picture. It’s like having an end vision and working backwards. I guess yes, in a funny way I do have sort of a process, but it’s not what you’d see as a conventional design process.

Keir: So you start at the end and work back to the beginning?

Mike: I think so, yeah.

Ryan: I think the reason why people want to know that is because it’s disconcerting to not know how to do something, so it happens in the business world all the time. It’s why people read books, like Rework by 37signals. They want to know how 37signals does what they do, as if it’s a formula that can be repeated, where what you’re basically saying is there is no substitute for creativity. You can’t say to someone “do these 3 steps,” and magically you’ll be a good designer, which is hard to say but that’s the truth.

Mike: I think it is the truth. You can’t give someone a checklist and say do these things and you’ll have the perfectly designed product.

Keir: Do you think it’s the same for the business world, Ryan?

Ryan: Yeah, there are things you can do, like I’m about to post an article on Think Vitamin about how to deal with your to-do list. There are these small things you can do, like I’m sure you would say use a tool to capture screenshots as you go around the web, of things that inspire you. Then go back to that list. There are small things you can do, but I think none of it makes your idea good. You still have to start with something good.

Mike: I think a lot of these things can aid your working process, sort of make your life a bit easier, and when you build up a bunch of these things, it can make your process a bit easier when you’re doing it but it’s never going to make you produce a great design.

Keir: I think process is definitely one of those things that people love talking about. The variety of ways that people approach it is always fascinating in code, in business, as well as in design. Before we move on, it’s worth name checking the video you made of all your design work for one of the talks you gave at Future Of Web Design. Why don’t you explain a bit about that?

Mike: Last year I did a talk at Future Of Web Design London, and it was about graphics design and web design, but what I did was I made a bunch of slides in Photoshop and recorded that process. It was pretty haphazard. Then I time lapsed it and crushed it into 3 minutes. It’s interesting because you can see where I start off something and it ends up completely different. It’s almost trial and error. If you want to check that out, you can see it at [vimeo.com] – [laughter]

Ryan: He’s got it written on his hand.

Mike: http://vimeo.com/4494324

Ryan: What’s that, one more time?

Mike: 4494324

Ryan: I thought it was a great video that shows the chaos of good design. It’s crazy; a lot of things you see in that video, you absolutely didn’t use and yet they’re good things. Hopefully that will be inspiring to all you guys listening to say don’t be worried if you have no idea where you’re to start or end with a design. Just give it a whirl. Thanks.

Keir: Moving on, Ryan you tweeted out earlier today to see if anyone had a burning topic they would like us to discuss. @peruvianidol came back with one we thought was absolutely worthy of discussion today. He asked, “Do you think having a degree, web related or not, adds any credibility to people in our field?” We’re going to be chatting about that for the next 10 minutes or so. Before we move on, why don’t we go around the table and fess up to if we’ve got a degree, what it’s in, and once we’ve done that we can start talking about if we think it’s helped us in the industry, and then maybe talk about it as a wider issue. Why don’t we start with you, Mike?

Mike: I’ve got a degree in related art and fine art. I did half of my degree in painting and the other half was doing stuff related to that. [laughter]

Keir: Like drinking beer.

Mike: Basically – no, it was stuff like film making, music, everything like that.

Ryan: Did the web even really exist when you were working on your degree? [laughter]

Mike: Not really, I remember there were rumors of a digital camera flying around.

Keir: Some mate of a mate had one, sort of thing.

Mike: Yeah, and I sort of pictured it looking like a disc drive or something like that. My degree is sort of largely connected to what I do but it’s not related to the web, as such.

Keir: Ryan, you’ve got probably the most techy background of us all. You’ve got a computer science degree.

Ryan: Yeah, I’ve got a 4-year degree from Colorado State University, a good school but run-of-the-mill state school from the U.S. I think I graduated with mostly B’s, sort of 3.2 average or something. I learned a lot about C++, Java, really hardcore stuff, UML, so that’s me.

Keir: My degree is in communications and sociology from Goldsmiths College in London. We probably talked about the web and chat rooms and MUD’s and things like that as ,multi-user domains, as theoretical stuff but even though it’s a massive part of the media world now, it certainly wasn’t when I was at university. I guess the question is; has having a degree helped any of us in the web field? Why don’t we start with you, Ryan?

Ryan: As a person who hires people, I’ll give my perspective from that position. I think having a degree doesn’t matter at all when it comes to who I hire. It very much has to do with what they can do and what type of person they are. One example I think is great and that everyone should see is Jason Zimdars who applied to work at 37signals as a designer. Jason Fried put out a call and said, “We’re looking for a designer, if you think you’re awesome, pitch yourself to us.” If you go to jasonzimdars.com/svn, you can basically see his pitch.

Ryan:He basically made a 2-3 page website and the whole point was to say “I’m actually really good at what I do. I’m a designer, here is some of my work,” and not only that but “I’m actually going to do a little redesign for you.” He did a redesign, a backpack showing the current version and then what he could do. I think the reason it really doesn’t matter – whether he’s trained or has a degree, I don’t know. He has a link to his resume, which I think is mostly irrelevant. I think any person who owns a company or who is hiring designers is going today, “Dang, he’s good.”

Ryan:It’s easier with designers because you can see their work. Those of you who are developers it’s a bit tougher because you can’t easily show elegant code and say you’re an amazing programmer. I think designers really need to get out there and do some work specifically for the job, do some dreaded pitch work for the job, and do something like Jason did. I promise this will get you on somebody’s radar, no matter what your background is.

Keir: But that’s not to say that having a degree is in any way a hindrance, right?

Ryan: No, I think having a degree is always a good thing. I can’t see it ever being bad. The only time I’ve seen it as bad is when I talk to people who are starting web apps. I know some people that are in school right now and I think “Why are you in school?” I understand it from an intellectual point of view. I think all of us agree it’s been nice to have a degree. I met people. I learned a lot. I learned how to think, but if I had a great idea for a startup or web app or something in college, I probably should have started it then instead of waiting until I was done with my degree. I think it can be bad in certain circumstances, but mostly it’s always good.

Keir: Maybe it’s different in the States, obviously Mike and I attended university over here in the U.K. but I had a ridiculous amount of free time, and also had access to computers, technology, printing resources, so in hindsight it probably would have been the best time to start something up like that because literally, I had about 4 hours a week contact time, of which I made about 50%, so maybe it’s changed now. There’s more pressure now. I think people actually have to pay to go to university more now, grants are less, and that kind of stuff. Did you have any free time at university?

Ryan: Quite a bit but you know when you’re young; you hang out with your friends, and mess around in your free time. I actually started a business when I was in university, called Y2K Solutions, and it was all about the year 2000 and if your computer is going to break. I think I had one client.

Keir: That’s all you need. You could have charged the Earth for that.

Ryan: I basically messed around during college. One thing we should mention during this talk is I think the question was not just about university degrees, but also qualifications. Not that there are really for web designers or developers, but if you could get one, it’s worth it.

Keir: I think if you are in the Microsoft world and use Microsoft tech, there is a whole MSDN qualification, and I know a lot of people undertake those and they’re quite time intensive and quite expensive to do. It certainly shows you have core competencies and beyond in those particular technologies, .NET. SQL Server, Sys Admin and all that kind of stuff. I think if you’re hiring from that perspective and you see someone has a whole list of those, and you know they’re certified qualifications over someone who may have the experience. What would you do in that situation?

Ryan: I guess that’s a tough call. I would tend to go with experience. Show me something real you’ve done that actually works. When we hired Mike, we asked you to redesign a rebrand for Think Vitamin or something?

Mike: A home page design.

Ryan: Just to get a rough feel.

Keir: I think it was very rough, wasn’t it? [laughter]

Ryan: It was pretty good. I liked it. It was very much – I’ve seen your site, but can you actually design? It’s a bit of an acid test. What do you think about all this?

Mike: I think, in short, no you don’t need a degree to prove yourself to get a job. At the same time though, from my perspective as a designer, I would still say it benefited me going to university, learning about art and design. There is definitely no two ways about that. I think it’s a two-pronged question.

Mike:I don’t think I would ever judge someone; I totally agree with the way you see it. I wouldn’t ever judge someone, and their qualifications wouldn’t matter. If they can prove themselves, that’s the main thing, but I wouldn’t say that’s a reason not to go. For me, one of the great things about going to college and university was you had so much creative freedom that you don’t necessarily have in the real world. It’s a great time to experiment and try stuff out. I think that was valuable for me. Plus, I think it’s a great experience as a person, valuable for different reasons.

Ryan: It’s good to be a well-rounded person.

Mike: It’s helpful but you definitely don’t need it.

Keir: I think when I went to university, I was 20-odd and I still had no clue what I wanted to do in life. It was an opportunity to live in a different place, do different stuff, and I think had I had a clear idea of what I wanted to do, maybe it wasn’t for me; I would have gone on and done something like that. I think I envied people at 18 or 19 who absolutely know the one thing they want to do is to become a web designer or web developer and can take it from there. If you look at a lot of people in this industry, there are a lot of high achievers in their mid-twenties.

Mike: Not even that, there are high achievers at 15. We know people we’ve met at events and stuff; there are a ton of them between the ages of 14 and 20, who are already doing amazing things. They definitely argue they don’t need to go off and get a degree.

Keir: They may well have been doing great things if the Internet hadn’t been around, but obviously it’s a great medium to actually know about stuff.

Ryan: I think what this question is really about is about success. I think what he’s asking is what does it take to be successful. Do I need a degree? The funniest thing is I think marketing has an unbelievable correlation to your “success” in your career. What I mean by that is you can be an amazing designer, developer, or businessman, but if you are unable to sell yourself then nobody will know.

Ryan: The guy who wrote Rich Dad Poor Dad, Kiyosaki, he said “When you write a book, they say ‘are you a bestselling author,’ not are you the best writing author.” I thought that was interesting. Really, the success of a book, a website, or a business is completely based upon whether or not they’re good at selling themselves and less to do with the product. The product has to be good. It’s like zappos.com, it works because the product is great. They’re great at customer service. The website works, but it’s not that; it’s how they sell themselves.

Ryan: I think I’d encourage everyone who is listening; just because you’re a designer or developer doesn’t mean that maybe the most important skill in your entire career isn’t whether or not you can sell yourself. It’s not a dirty thing. It’s actually the most important thing to your success. There are a lot of things people can learn to become better at that.

Mike: I think that’s probably true, but it’s a shame in a way. There are definitely talented people out there who probably find that hard.

Ryan: I don’t think it’s necessarily fair but I think it’s the truth.

Keir: There are a lot of people in this industry who work all on their own. There are a lot of people who work in small teams, or small collectives. Maybe it’s about identifying someone who is really good, working with them, working together, and letting them focus on that while you punt out the great design or code. I think there is a lot to be said about the people we know about who work in teams. One of them is the “maven” who goes out and talks about it all the time, evangelizing the work their colleague does and, by proxy almost, they become well known. I think it’s a lot about the people you work with as well.

Ryan: True, but if you’re a one-man-band, you can do things like pick up a book by Seth Godin, who is a brilliant marketer. You can pick up a couple of gems from him. The reason why I love what Jason Zimdars did is he is an amazing designer, but he’s also good at marketing himself. He realized the only way to get on Jason Fried’s radar was to do something out of the ordinary.

Ryan:That’s happened with us. We had an amazing intern named Trista. She basically sent me this hand-made letter, and completely blew me away. Of course I was going to invite her to be an intern after that. She was good at what she does, but she was also good at marketing herself.

Keir: I guess in a round-about fashion it raises the idea of CVs, Curriculum Vitae or what you call resumes. How important are they when you’re applying for a job? Should people even bother with them now?

Mike: People traditionally still stick on that “Personal Interests: cinema, walking, swimming, and reading”. It’s really irrelevant information. You’re not going to put on there “mass murder”.

Keir: Or sleeping on a Sunday afternoon.

Ryan: Why not do something crazy and off the wall? Why not record a video of yourself, and upload it to YouTube instead, talking about what you’re passionate about, or anything that’s different. I think a resume is you’re sort of promising that you’re not a murderer. Great, I kind of presumed that. What about how creative are you?

Keir: This is something we touched on in the BathCamp talk, broadening out a bit, talking about online portfolios and what people should put in their portfolios to sort of sell themselves. Have you had any thoughts on that, your latest project, or how far do you go back?

Ryan: Just do make believe stuff. Most of the things you do for clients are not going to be as interesting as you’d hoped it would be. I think we’re fortunate here at Carsonified, to actually have a lot of freedom. When Mike designed Chirp, chirp.twitter.com, it’s pretty close to everything we would have hoped it would have been. Twitter didn’t mind. We did whatever we wanted. But I think what people should do is say, “I’m going to redesign CNN.com for fun, and that’s going to be something I put in my portfolio.”

Keir: That’s a really good idea. 37signals used to do occasional blog posts, “37 Better” where they take a site – you can write blog posts about it, get feedback on it, enhance it. I think we’ve come to the conclusion that it’s not essential. It doesn’t necessarily add credibility but there is a lot of added value, maybe non-academic or otherwise, from going to university. @peruvianidol, I hope that helps and we welcome your feedback and thoughts in the comments. Let us know what you think.

Keir: Unbelievably, we’ve racked up 26 minutes already. Just have a couple of final things to talk about. One is a new scheme we’ve launched across Carsonified this week, which is our affiliate program for all our events. What is all that about, Ryan?

Ryan: If you head to carsonified.com/affiliates, it’s basically a way for you guys to make money. If you want to recommend people to our events, Future Web Design or Future Web Apps, if you do that you get paid each time you do and we sell a seat. You can make between 20 dollars and 20 pounds per ticket, so you can rack up that quickly and make some decent cash. It’s really easy. Just sign up and Mike has designed some nice banners and graphics you can use on your site to do that. Hopefully you can make some money out there from that.

Keir: It’s simple to sign up. All the instructions are on carsonified.com/affiliates. There are banners and all sorts of things there so check it out and tell us what you think. If you sign up, give us a shout and it will be great to have you on board.

Ryan: One last thing that I’d like to mention is our HTML5 and CSS3 online conferences. Head to carsonified.com/online-conferences/css3 and that is happening on Monday, March 22nd or the HTML5 one is happening in April. I hope you can join us for that.

Keir: Quickly Ryan, how does that actually work, for people who might not be familiar with online conferences?

Ryan: We use WebEx so it’s something that installs on your browser and works for every operating system. You just login on your browser, watch, listen, and you can also chat in the chat room. It’s very easy.

Keir: Brilliant. Are there any final thoughts? Mike?

Mike: No

Keir: Ryan?

Ryan: Have a good week, and please email us if you want us to cover anything specific on the show.

Keir: Thank you everyone for listening, and we’ll see you in a couple of weeks.

Mike: Cheers

Ryan: Bye