Think Vitamin Radio: Episode #1
Broadcast: Thursday 21st January 2010
Keir Whitaker:
[0:02] Welcome to Think Vitamin Radio, the podcast for web designers,
web developers, and web entrepreneurs. My name is Keir Whitaker. I’m
the editor of Think Vitamin, the blog you can find carsonified.com/blog. I’ll be joined each week by Mike Kus and Ryan Carson, also of Carsonified. Say, “Hello.”
Mike Kus:
[0:17] Yo.
Ryan Carson:
[0:18] Hello.
Keir:
[0:19] OK, so before we start, why don’t we just let you guys introduce
yourselves, and for the listeners who’ve never heard of you, tell us a
little bit about what you do at Carsonified.
Mike:
[0:28] I’m Mike, I’m the designer at Carsonified. I design and build
websites, and other print stuff, too. Basically I’m responsible for all
the visual stuff that comes out of the company.
Keir:
[0:41] What sites might people know you from besides carsonified.com?
Mike:
[0:47] The Stack Overflow DevDays Site [stackoverflow.carsonified.com] . Fun little project sites we’ve done like Twiggy [twiggy.carsonified.com] and themattinator.com…also the Carsonified event sites.
Keir:
[1:02] What have you been working on recently? I know we’re going to
talk about something later, but why don’t you give people a heads-up.
Mike:
[1:07] Since we’ve got from the new year, I’ve been working on Chirp,
which is a site for the new Twitter Developer Conference. It’s been an
amazing project to work on, because I’ve basically had free reign in
the design to go crazy. It’s been loads of fun. A lot of hard work,
because it’s very detailed. But yeah, I’ll talk more about that later.
Keir:
[1:34] We’ve also got Ryan, Ryan Carson, the founder of Carsonified,
along with his wife, Gill. Tell us a bit about yourself, Ryan.
Ryan:
[1:40] I started Carsonified about five years ago. I used to be a web
developer, primarily LAMP. But now I just really get into web
entrepreneurship, and I love working with the team here. That’s me.
Keir:
[1:54] Obviously we’re all keen to do a podcast, but why don’t you
explain a little bit about some of the motivation behind actually doing
it now.
Ryan:
[2:02] We have always wanted to do a podcast, but never had time.
Thankfully, now that Keir, you, are our full-time community manager, we
actually have someone to do it.So I’m really looking forward to talking
about what’s going on on the web right now, and connecting with all of
you out there as the audience. It’ll be good.
Keir:
[2:20] Some of the broad themes I mentioned at the top-web design, web
development, web entrepreneurship-do you want to add anything to that?
Ryan:
[2:26] No, those are three things that we’re really passionate about
here. It should be interesting. I think part of the web
entrepreneurship stuff that I’m going to be focusing on is measurement
and marketing. All those things that sometimes I think as web designers
and developers we stay away from, but are actually integral to
succeeding online.So I’m going to talk about the dirty world of
marketing. [laughter]
Keir:
[2:50] We’re going to be doing this every couple of weeks, and it’s
going to be available via iTunes. Just search for Think Vitamin Radio.
We’re also going to be publishing the podcast on Think Vitamin, the
blog. They’re going to be around 20 minutes, hopefully. So it’s pretty
quick-fire. Nothing too heavy; good for the commute to work. Why don’t
we get started? Ryan, you’ve got a quick announcement about the App
Star Competition from Vodafone, where you can win 100,000 Euros.
Ryan:
[3:13] Yeah. Basically Vodafone has been really kicking up their
involvement with the web development and design community. Folks
working on mobile widgets. Basically they’re web apps on phones.
They’re all HTML CSS.If you enter App Star, you could win 100,000
Euros, which, hey, why not? Just Google Vodafone App Star and you’ll
find it. So Vodafone App Star, it’s a great competition and highly
recommended.
Keir:
[3:39] Cool. Ryan, let’s crack on. Ryan, you’re going to be talking about Dabble DB first off.
Ryan:
[3:46] Yeah. I have a new hobby/habit involving LEGO Star Wars.
Keir:
[3:54] You wouldn’t know it if you came in the office. There’s just no way you’d know this.
Ryan:
[3:58] The office is littered with LEGO Star Wars. But I was having the
basic problem of, you know what, I don’t want to use PHPMyAdmin. It’s a
nightmare to use. It’s not going to automatically link up records. So
is there a web front end to a database?I Googled a little bit, came
across Dabble DB. Dabble DB, they were sort of big a couple of years
ago. It seems like I hadn’t heard of them, but they’re still cracking
along. Gave it a try. It’s good, but the major problem with Dabble DB
is that you can’t directly export to MySQL.
Keir:
[4:37] It’s not a front end to MySQL database.
Ryan:
[4:40] No. Which is a major failing in my view, because I think pretty
much every web developer that I know of is roughly used to MySQL. Has
used it, if they haven’t, they might understand it quite quickly. I
think that they made a weird error in that part.And what this sort of
brings up in general, is I think that-hey, all of you listening-there’s
a real opening in the market right now for someone to build a really
easy-to-use web front end to a database.I’ve done a little bit of
research, and there’s a couple out there. There’s ZohoDB, which is now
been now been re-branded as Zoho Reports, which is roughly the same as
Dabble DB.
Keir:
[5:22] Is that proprietary as well?
Ryan:
[5:24] Yeah, it is. Again, it’s not really a front end to MySQL. The only think I can find is called VFront, which is vfront.org,
which is Open Source. It’s basically a slightly better version of
phpMyAdmin.I just think this is ridiculous that there isn’t something
really easy to use. I want a nice front end to my database. When I link
up records I want it to happen automatically. A major opening in the
market, I’d say.
Keir:
[5:51] So given that you’ve already gone down the Dabble DB route, and
you’ve already started entering all your records and that, how do you
propose to link that into your website?
Ryan:
[5:59] Interestingly enough, they do have some basic functionality
using JSON. You can essentially export the data as JSON, and display it
on your site. And it’s OK. It feels like a hack to me, but it’s
possible.So you can use Dabble DB to display data on your website, but
it’s a bit fiddly.
Keir:
[6:22] OK, excellent. There’s a couple of other sites that you’ve had a
look at in relation to marketing, measurement, and that kind of stuff.
Why don’t you go through those quickly?
Ryan:
[6:34] Yeah. All of you guys out there who are interested in how your
website is performing from a marketing standpoint; so when people come
to your home page, are they doing what you want them to do? Which, to
be honest, should be all of us, as web professionals.There’s a really
cool new startup by Josh Porter [@bokardo on Twitter]
and a couple of other people called Performable. That’s performable.com.
It’s in closed beta right now and I haven’t actually used it, as a
disclaimer. But the concept looks great.Basically the site is all about
helping you convert your visitors into paid users, sign-ups, whatever
your goals are. And what’s cool, they’re actually funded by Charles
River Ventures. They have a good chunk of cash in to do that.I think
what’s nice is this shows that in general the industry is maturing and
understanding that, “You know what? We need better tools to measure
conversions, measure goals.” You can probably speak to that, Keir. It’s
not exactly been easy to measure things.
Keir:
[7:33] No, absolutely not. Especially when you’re using third-party
applications. And then obviously we sell tickets, and our ticket
provider is on a different site, not necessarily integrated directly
into the domain we’re tracking, all those kind of things. Have you any
idea how Performable is going to help us?
Ryan:
[7:49] I believe they’re going to give you some funnel tools, some
various things like that. There’s another application which I checked
out, it’s called KISSmetrics. It, also, is in closed beta,
unfortunately, but I think if you request one. It’s essentially Google
Analytics, but more niche. Specifically for websites who want to
convert visitors into users. But it again, this thing is going to be a
great tool. I’d be shocked if it wasn’t acquired by Google, just the
like the Caffeine startup, whatever that was called.
Keir:
[8:29] Yeah, what was that called? The blog-tracking tool.
Mike:
[8:35] BlogTracking? [laughter]
Ryan:
[8:37] Blogtracker.com. [NB: The site we couldn't think of was Measure Map which was later bought by Google]
Keir:
[8:38] We’ll come back to that. I guess it’s appropriate now, I was going to mention it in my section, about abtests.com,
which is something we covered on the blog. I did a quick review of
that, which I believe is also the people behind KISSmetrics.Essentially
it’s a very easy-to-use site where you can upload results from your own
A/B tests. For example, if you tried certain headlines on your home
page, you track those using whatever tool you prefer. You can, then,
upload the screenshots, the before and the after and show which one
performed better.I think this is important because so much A/B testing
is done behind the scenes, it’s not often shared. It’s often not
conclusive either. You might have each variation performing equally
well.And so what this enables you to do, just by looking through the
different sections, is see what other people have experienced and what
worked for them. It’s almost like an A/B test in a few seconds?
Ryan:
[9:27] What was the URL again?
Keir:
[9:29] Abtests.com.
Ryan:
[9:32] Also, if you’re interested in A/B testing and have a WordPress
blog, we actually wrote a post on Think Vitamin called A/B Testing on
WordPress”, and I did a complete video tutorial on that. That should
help all you guys out there.
Keir:
[9:44] We’ll link that up in the show notes for sure. I was actually
looking at that yesterday and trying to work it out myself.
[9:48] [laughter]
Keir:
[9:50] Cool. Well, thank, Ryan. You’re going to be back every episode
with another review, and talking about entrepreneurship as well. Next we
turn to Mike, talking Chirp. For those of you don’t know,
Carsonified, that’s the company behind Think Vitamin-are working with
Twitter to put on the first official Twitter Developer Conference in
San Francisco, in April. It was announced at LeWeb, which Greg, who’s
engineering this episode for radio, attended. It’s basically going to be
about 800 people, and it’s going to be all focused around Twitter and
it’s developer tools, APIs, all that kind of stuff. Mike’s been the
sole designer on the site, which is due to go live, hopefully by the
time this podcast is out. Why don’t you tell us a bit about the site and
the challenges, maybe the approach you took? It’s very much in your
style, with hand-drawn elements, very time-consuming. Why don’t you
give us a bit of a brief?
Ryan:
[10:49] And maybe also talk through a little bit of the accessibility
challenges that we’ve had, and also, the really cool solutions you’ve
come up with.
Mike:
[10:57] Firstly, design-wise, it is very much in my sort of personal
hand-drawn style. And I’ve sort of been itching to get away from that a
little bit, but for the Chirp site it seemed so appropriate, because it
just went with Twitter. So rather than shy away from that, I actually
went into it more than I’ve ever done before, really. As a viewer on
the finished site, the whole thing looks like it was done by hand. The
only thing that doesn’t look like it was done by hand is the HTML text.
Everything else is hand-drawn.
Ryan:
[11:37] And what’s the URL again? I don’t know if we mentioned that.
Mike:
[11:39] Oh, yeah. It’s chirp.twitter.com.
It’s the holding page up there right now, but hopefully, like Keir
said, by the time this is live, the site should be live.It’s been an
amazing project to work on, because I’ve just been able to go to town
with this sort of drawing, and paid real attention to detail and little
intricate bits of the site. There’s some really nice stuff in there,
and I’m really happy with it.
Keir:
[12:08] You’ve also kind of embraced some of the newer CSS3 techniques as well.
Mike:
[12:12] Yeah. I’ve had to play around with that. And if you go through
the pages, there’s a bunch of CSS3 stuff. Because it’s a really playful
site. And actually when you’re on the site, part of the inspiration at
one point, especially in the home page, it reminded me of a pinball
machine. So visually it was that sort of chaotic. So there’s some CSS3
stuff in there. It’s really just sort of for fun and experimenting with
what it can do.
Ryan:
[12:43] One thing, Mike, that I thought was interesting, was how the
photos were taped on the home page. And I know you used the CSS3 to do
that. Can you tell the listeners how you did that?
Mike:
[12:51] Yeah, it’s really simple. It’s just CSS transformed and
transitioned. Basically you just set the image, you set sort of
transform, which is the amount of degrees it rotates. And then the
transition is basically the time it takes to do that. So when you hover
over it, they sort of go back and forwards. There’s some really good
resources in this year’s “24 ways“. There’s a couple of great articles
on CSS3. So if you want to know more about it, check that out.
Keir:
[13:28] Is that by Tim Van Damme?
Mike:
[13:30] Yep.
Keir:
[13:31] There were a good couple of articles on there, weren’t there?
Mike:
[13:37] Yeah. And it’s cool. And there’s a few things that are scattered around the site.
Keir:
[13:41] One of the things when we launched the holding page, some of
the feedback, was that the site without images, the images turned off,
wasn’t accessible. I know you’ve done quite a lot of work to address
that, and quite a bit of research. Do you want to share some of that
information?
Mike:
[13:59] It was an interesting thing. The thing is, the site was
accessible, I want to clear that up. If you’re partially-sighted or
something, the site was still accessible to screen readers and stuff.
Keir:
[14:13] Because we checked that out, didn’t we, with AbilityNet.
Mike:
[14:16] That’s right. And I was speaking to a guy called Joe Chiswick at
AbilityNet as well, and he checked it out, and it was perfectly
accessible. But if you’re a user who chooses to switch images off,
obviously it’s because of the way I was using background images for
certain bits of text, and just shifting the actual HTML text off screen
with CSS. When you turn images off, you can’t see the text on the
screen. You basically can’t see what’s going on. I looked around the
net, and it’s the standard way of doing things. Thousands of sites have
the same “problem,” if you want to call it that. So anyway, I looked
into the best way of doing it. And with the Chirp site, it’s
particularly interesting, because it is basically all hand-drawn. All
the font apart from, like I say, the bulk of body copy, it’s mainly
done with hand-drawn images that I’ve written myself. So I wanted to
come up with a solution that was basically going to look good on the
screen, as it does. Look perfectly usable with images turned off. And
perfectly usable with styles turned off. And so what I’ve done is sort
of like H2s, H3s, high-end drawing. There’s a style of a background
image like you would normally do. And then, there’s also another image
in the actual HTML with alt text. The thing is what I’ve done is, which
is interesting, I’ve used different images. So the image you see with
styles turned off is a simplified version of the main image. Because
those are so decorative and big and odd-shaped, when styles off with
the actual images, looking at the site doesn’t read very clearly. It’s
sort of big, odd-shaped images all down the page, which is actually
just copy that you want to read. It looks great in context, but as soon
as you turn styles off, it’s a bit untidy. So what I’ve done is I’ve
created a very small, black and white, easy-to-read file that goes into
HTML. So when you turn styles off, it basically is a nice, neat page to
read. Like I said, you turn images off, you get all of the old text from
those images that are in the HTML. And if you’re looking at the actual
site…so basically all bases are covered.
Keir:
[16:51] Images on, images off, styles on, images on, et cetera, et cetera.
Mike:
[16:55] Yeah.
Keir:
[16:56] Excellent. That must have taken a bit of time.
Mike:
[16:58] Yeah. Especially on that site. I think for any web designers
out there, it’s interesting to check. Everyone should check their sites
to see what it’s like. Loads of sites have this problem. It’s very
common. Some people might say it’s not that big a deal, because not
that many people are viewing pages with images off. But it’s worth
checking out. It’s not too much trouble for your average site. For
Chirp, it happens all over the place, because there are so many
hand-drawn hexed images. But for your average site it might only happen
two or three times. It nice if you switch the styles off, you don’t get
an odd, out-of-place-looking image with text on it. You just get this
nice…
Keir:
[17:41] And you were using the Firefox Web Developer Toolbar to check
all this? I actually noticed the other day for any Chrome or Chromium
users out there, that there’s a similar extension for Chrome now that
allows you to turn CSS on and CSS off, images on, et cetera. So that’s
worth checking out on the Chromium extension site.
Ryan:
[17:59] On the Chrome/Chromium front, actually, if you’re on Mac and
you really want extensions, which you can’t have with Chrome,
definitely grab Chromium. And the nice thing is, on TechCrunch, if you
Google “TechCrunch Chromium” a post will come up and basically, in that
post, is a download link to a little auto-updater app. That
auto-updater app will automatically grab the latest nightly build of
Chromium and update it for you. So you can always have up-to-the-minute
copies of Chromium, which I do. And so far it’s fab. I think all of
hate the bookmark feature in Chrome right now.
Keir:
[18:38] Which in Chromium it’s got the bookmark manager in it.
Ryan:
[18:42] I didn’t notice that.
Keir:
[18:44] It’s Chromium Updater, if you Google “TechCrunch Chromium Updater.”
Mike:
[18:48] Just quickly on that, on CSSS3 stuff. It was Natalie from Clearleft who did that article on “24 ways.”
Keir:
[18:53] OK. Natalie Downe. Great stuff. So hopefully by the time you
listen to this, that site will be live and will be at
chirp.twitter.com. OK, moving on, I’m just going to review a couple of
sites that I’ve come across in the last couple of weeks. The first one
is Doctype, who we’ve teamed up with on Think Vitamin. What do they
call them, vidcasts? Video? Video podcasts? They’re about 7-10 minutes
long, and Jim and Nick go over a couple of cool things each week. This
week was JQTouch, which is a cool JQuery plugin, or series of files,
that allow you to create very slick, very feature-rich iPhone apps.
Ryan:
[19:36] I was absolutely blown away by this. Basically you can make
your website on an iPhone look exactly like an iPhone app. It’s
shocking. It’s amazing.
Keir:
[19:47] That was very interesting. They’ve also covered things in
previous episodes like getting started with Amazon S3, a whole bunch of
stuff. It’s less than 10 minutes long, it’s each week, every Tuesday,
Jim and Nick from Orlando, Florida. You can find the last two episodes
of Doctype on Think Vitamin. I’ll put the link in the show notes. And
we’ll be syndicating the next two episodes as well. The next site I
wanted to refer to was one for the info-graphic nuts out there, called passfail.squarespace.com.
It’s basically a post by Tyler Thompson about redesigning boarding
passes, which as I say, I’m a sucker for the info-graphics and things
like that. It really talks through the issues of expressing information
on the boarding pass and how crap they essentially are. A lot of other
people then chimed in with their ideas and sort of talk about the
limitations of, “well, that’s all very well, but it’s a thermal
printer,” and all these kinds of considerations. Although it’s not
strictly web design, it does really focus in on solving a problem
through design, which I think is why it’s interesting and something we
can definitely learn from.
Mike:
[20:56] It’s also interesting because actually that info-graphic style
is pretty trendy at the moment. There’s a few sites popping up that
just happen to be using that actual style. Nick Felton sort of started
it with Annual Reports, and it’s very much sort of in that vein.
Ryan:
[21:19] I love those.
Keir:
[21:20] He should be due one out soon, I’m sure. So that’s definitely
worth a read…sort of solving problems through design. We touched on abtests.com earlier, which is a really interesting site. The last one I wanted to look at was the seomoz.org.
A blog post on that called “11 Conversion Lessons Learned in 2009.”
SEOmoz is a site that’s all about SEO resources and measurement and
tracking. It’s definitely worth a read. They offer some services which
are paid for, as well. But a couple of main points from the 11 that I
thought were very, very interesting. The first one was undeniably cheat
sheets and check lists make great link bait. I think this has been
proven over the last year with sites such as Smashing Magazine, which
do that very well. I’ll often find myself clicking on those things. I
don’t know about you guys.
Ryan:
[22:11] Yeah. I definitely have to say that it bothers me to hear
people say that they’re going to unsubscribe from any blogs that do
lists. Because the truth is, they’re valuable. All of us have limited
time in the day. I don’t have an hour to read an article, I’ve got 10
minutes. And if I can glean one or two good things from a list, then
great.
Keir:
[22:30] Absolutely.
Mike:
[22:31] Yeah.
Keir:
[22:33] That’s a great way of getting people onto your site, you’ll
rank highly in Google as well, if you use the keywords correctly and
that kind of stuff. So that was interesting. The next point was about
bounce pages, i.e. the pages people will come to on your site and they
quickly leave. One of the points they made was, “let’s not focus on
specific URLs, but let’s focus on the types of pages that people bounce
from very quickly. “For example, is it your “About” section? The “about
the team,” the “history of the company,” pages. You could aggregate
those as the “About” pages. Is it individual blog posts? Let’s say most
bounce pages are your last 10 blog posts, then it’s not necessarily
looking at the specific content on those pages, but maybe looking at
the design of your single blog post page in itself.
Ryan:
[23:18] Cool.
Keir:
[23:19] But aggregating those sort of themes and looking at solving the
problem on those types of pages, as opposed to focusing on specific
URLs. The final point I wanted to raise from the article, and there were
a bunch more, was that they say social media, i.e. Twitter and Facebook,
that they particularly refer to, is not an acquisition source. But it
is a great communications tool. It’s a great way of communicating with
our audience, but it’s not a direct selling tool for them. Which I
think we often believe it could be or should be or is. I think that’s
something we find ourselves as well. We have a lot of Twitter traffic,
but it doesn’t necessarily convert.
Ryan:
[23:54] Yeah. And I think one thing that Keir and I found interesting, is that when we actually looked at our traffic at carsonified.com, we were putting too much importance on Twitter. I have close to 20,000 followers, Carsonified has close to 10,000.
Keir:
[24:08] I’ve got 12. Mike’s got a few more.
Ryan:
[24:11] We’ve got a fair amount of Twitter followers, and you’d think,
actually, we should be seeing a fair amount of traffic to Carsonified
from that. But the truth is actually it was way, way, way below an
organic Google, direct and referring links. It was probably fourth or
fifth or something.
Keir:
[24:28] Yeah, it might have been even slightly lower down the top 10.
Yeah, it was very interesting. So I encourage you all to have a look at
your stats and see how high the Twitter and Facebook rate is on there.
Those are my links for this week. I’ve got a couple of quick
announcements before we go. We’ve got “The Future of Web Apps” in Miami,
which is coming up. Run by us at Carsonified.
Ryan:
[24:49] Whoo-whoo!
Keir:
[24:52] We’re heading out there in just under a month. What can people expect, Ryan?
Ryan:
[24:57] It’s going to be a lot of fun, number one. The reason we chose
Miami is we wanted to invite you someplace fun and warm, basically, in
February. Also we felt that the community down there was unloved, that
there wasn’t any big events there. You can expect, first of all,
sunshine, relaxation. But most importantly just amazing speakers. We
really have some absolutely stunning speakers. People like Gary
Vaynerchuk, Fred Wilson, Tara Hunt.
Keir:
[25:25] Fred’s behind Union Square Ventures, one of the investment companies behind companies like Twitter and Etsy.
Ryan:
[25:31] Yeah. If you don’t know who Fred Wilson is, man, you have got to start following this guy. His blog is avc.com.
He’s one of the smartest guys I know in web entrepreneurship. He’s
going to be speaking. He’s also going to be doing a workshop. We also
have some other great speakers that you should check out. It’s going to
be a lot of fun, really interesting, hope you can make it.
Keir:
[25:54] And more info can be found on our site’s home page, carsonified.com.
There’s a little offer on there for anyone who’s looking to get a
ticket. We’re going to be launching a couple of new events in the next
couple of weeks. We’ve got Future Web Apps Dublin on the 14th of May,
which we announced via the newsletter, which you can subscribe to from
Think Vitamin blog. And also, Future Web Design is coming back to
London. But we changed that slightly. Getting a new venue and a bit
longer. Why don’t you tell the listeners a little bit more about that,
Ryan?
Ryan:
[26:27] We just wanted to offer more value to you guys. We wanted to
add another track, so it’s not a two-track event. So you’re going to
get effectively 28 different sessions that you can choose from. At
least 20 speakers, it’s in a beautiful venue. It’s in the Brewery,
which is in London. So it’s a major upgrade from last year.
Keir:
[26:48] It’s a great venue for that.
Ryan:
[26:50] It’s just going to be a great time to meet other web designers.
The workshops are all going to be really in-depth. We decided to switch
from half-day workshops to full-day workshops. You can choose from four
full-day workshops that are really in-depth, on topics like HTML5,
CSS3. Running a web design business, we feel there’s been a lot of you
asking for more advice on, “How do you run a successful web design
business?” Paul Boag is going to be talking about that. He’s done a
great job with Headscape. Sarah Parmenter is also going to be talking
also about that, how she runs her studio. It’s going to be really
valuable for you guys, and we hope you can make it.
Keir:
[27:28] That’s the 17th to the 19th, so three days. The workshops, I
believe, are on the last day? So on the 19th. And we’re going to be
launching that in the beginning of February. We’ll be talking about it
on the blog and on this podcast, most likely before that. That’s all we
have time for this week, but if you would like to get in touch with us,
feel free to leave a comment on the blog post or email me at thinkvitamin@carsonified.com. If
you are at this point in the podcast and you’ve listened all the way
through, we’ve got a little competition for you. We’ve got 10 copies of
“Crush It” by Gary Vaynerchuk, who’s speaking in Miami. He’s an amazing
speaker. If you’ve not heard Gary speak, be sure to check out some of
the videos on our Vimeo Channel, vimeo.com/carsonifiedtv. He’s
spoken for us a few times, and he rounds off the day in an amazing
fashion. He book is great. It’ll take you an evening to read. It’s
informative, full of ideas about how he runs one library and how he’s
got successful on the web. All you have to do to enter is email thinkvitamin@carsonified.com
with your name and address. The first 10 that we get in will be sent,
regardless of where you are in the world, a copy of “Crush It.”
Ryan:
[28:42] Yeah.
Keir:
[28:43] OK, thanks for listening, and we’ll see you again next week.
Mike:
[28:46] Thanks.
Ryan:
[28:46] Bye.
Mike:
[28:47] Bye.
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